Interview with Chris Sobenes of Rancho Rio Vista

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Transcript

Interview with Chris Sobenes of Rancho Rio Vista

Paul Ward: Hi everyone. Paul Ward here and welcome to another edition of Farm Talk. We are very excited today because we have Chris Sobenes from Rancho Rio Vista near Ojai, California, Chris, welcome to the show. 

Paul Ward: Thank you so much for being here. So Chris, you are a horse trainer, but not just an everyday horse trainer. You practice a specific discipline. What type of horse training do you do?

Chris Sobenes: Well, I teach horsemanship. Some people would like to call it “natural horsemanship.” That’s a term that we’ve heard quite a lot in this style of riding, but you know, there’s really nothing natural about riding a horse. The term kind of came into play so that people could try and figure out what it is and what it means to ride in the style. So when you think about trying to get on a horse it’s not really natural to crawl up onto a strap with the saddle on then crawl up onto a horse and ride. It’s not something that the horse would naturally choose, but we want to do it. And so we want to make it easy for the horses to carry us. So when I think about natural horsemanship, I think about riding the horse in a way that allows the horse to react in his most natural way possible while you are riding. So that’s where that discipline name came in, “natural horsemanship.” So that’s what I teach. I teach a style of riding that incorporates some balance, some timing and some feel of the horse that really incorporates the horse’s natural instincts into how you are riding and how you are asking that horse to do something for you.

Paul Ward: Okay. The movie, The Horse Whisperer, and everybody’s heard of the movie. A five-star movie; you’re not whispering to him

Chris Sobenes: The horse. No, no, not in a you know, in the ear type of way. The horse can tell a lot about you from a very far distance, so they can understand your body language and your intention before you even really touch them. So the whispering is more of a mental thing, more of a” “connection thing” between you and the horse that people would say, is a “whisper” because you’re not really saying anything. It’s just how you are interacting with that horse. Just from  your presence with the horse.

Paul Ward: Interesting and different horses have different personalities. Is that? They’re not all the same, right?

Chris Sobenes: Yeah. We have 17 horses on the ranch right now and every one of them has just a little bit different way of interacting with humans or with riders or people handling them onto the ground. How you ride them depends on their personality, to. Some are very willing and interested and eager to have interaction with a trainer or a rider and some are not. So those are the ones that are a little more difficult and they might have a little bit more of an interest in kind of telling you what they think about what you’re doing. So that’s where you know the style of riding works best. When you have all the personalities, it doesn’t really matter how they wake up that day, we just get them out and work with what we have that day.

Paul Ward: Gotcha. And now when you’re training a horse, does the horse kind of speak to you? Does it say “I’m willing to do this, or I’m not willing to do this, or you can’t force me to do this if I don’t want to,” how does that answer?

Chris Sobenes: Absolutely. Yeah. So horses have very subtle body language and you have to know how to read it and how to feel it. They don’t, you know, wag their tail like a dog or smile like a human or look at you in the eyes a certain way. They just have a very  subtleness where maybe they flatten their head or their ear, or their attention comes up or you feel a little energy underneath the saddle. That’s when you know that they’re communicating to you, “I’m uncomfortable about something that’s happening.” Then you have to react in a way that helps them get past that reaction. So for horses, it’s life and death, it’s black and white. There’s no yeah, “maybe I’ll go over there if you want me to.” If they’re afraid of something or they have told you that there’s something that is an uncomfortable event, you have to respond in a way that helps them through it and doesn’t force them through it. 

Paul Ward: Interesting. So that’s their communication. You’re building trust with that animal to train them, to do what you want them to do, but then they also have to want to do it, right? 

Chris Sobenes: Yes. You want your horses to be invested in what you’re doing and interested in what you’re doing. But they aren’t always, and they do need to be obedient. They need to listen to you and you need to be assertive enough and a good enough leader that they say, “I’ll follow you because you’ve been right by me this whole time.” So sometimes we come across horses that have not had a very good experience with people and they want to take over. That’s their language of letting you know, “my experience has not been good.” So with a human you have to be the one that turns the tables and lets them follow me or their rider as a trainer and not take over which could get the rider into a bad situation.

Paul Ward: Interesting. So if a horse has been abused or had some kind of traumatic event, then there’d be a time period to build that trust back before you could really train it, right?

Chris Sobenes: Yeah, absolutely. It could be not even just abuse, but neglect. Even neglect will change a horse’s attitude towards somebody that is going to handle them.

Paul Ward: So it’s just sitting in the pasture for days, without any other horse contact or other human contact?

Chris Sobenes: Yeah. That happens a lot when people isolate a horse. Then the horse reacts. Maybe they start to bite or they start to be aggressive towards the person that’s coming in to handle them. So that’s where we would come in and try to help that horse regain its natural instincts and become more of a partner and less of an individual.

Paul Ward: Interesting. Now, does the horse enjoy what it’s doing? I mean, you’re training a horse to do some “unnatural acts,” impressive stuff, you know, riding and parades and prancing and jumping over fences and all kinds of different disciplines. Can you tell when the horse is having fun?

Chris Sobenes: Absolutely. Yeah. If you are a rider that really considers the horse and, and has good timing and asks the horse to do things in a way that’s very easy for them, then the horses really enjoy that activity. They look forward to coming out of their pasture or their paddock. It’s the times when you have horses that are maybe forced to do something where you see the body language change or the aggressive behavior. That’s just their way of letting you know that they don’t enjoy what they’re doing. Not to say that they couldn’t later enjoy that same activity. It just has to be approached in a way that is easier for them.

Paul Ward: Gotcha. And horse training has changed over generations, hasn’t it? I mean, kind of old school thinking was “I’m gonna force you horse to do what I want you to do. Cause I’m your master.” Now it’s kind of more a collaboration between you and the animal. 

Chris Sobenes: To a degree, Yeah. It still is kind of a dictatorship on some level because the horse does have to follow the rider at all times. So in the past it was, get the saddle on, get on, ride it through the bucking part of it. Maybe you’ve got a horse that’s going to cooperate to do some things for you. Now, when we think about having a horse, we want the horse to have more comfort in the process of becoming an animal that would allow a human on its back. So there is a collaboration, but it does still need to be me as the leader and them as the follower. There’s always a hierarchy. They always need to find it. So the times when people get in trouble is when the horse is the leader and the rider is the passenger. That is never good. You can get into a lot of trouble then when it ends up being like that.

Paul Ward: As a novice rider, when I do my once or twice annual trail rides, the horse is going to lead you back to the trough because he wants to go back. Also, there are many different disciplines to horseback riding, there’s Hunter, jumper, and Western and yourself in the natural horsemanship style. Are all horses equipped for all different styles? Or can you kind of say, “Hey, this would be a good dressage horse, or this would be a good carriage horse?”

Chris Sobenes: Yes. There’s a lot of different types of horses out there. Most horses can do a little bit of things that are outside their wheelhouse. For instance, you might not want a quarter horse to go to be a Grand Prix jumper. Maybe some could, but most of the time you’re going to look for a horse that is really equipped for that discipline and train that particular horse for that discipline. Not to say that even, you know, an Arab or something that’s not really considered a jumping horse could be a good jumper. It would just be less likely that they would be as successful as somebody might want them to be in a particular discipline. So with all the different breeds, they are bred to do certain things in the world besides just being your trail horse, right. Every discipline has sort of a thing that works well for that horse. Right?

Paul Ward: So the size of the horse, the natural speed of the horse. Would the bread dictate what discipline is going to be right? With the natural horsemanship style, what is the horse doing once it’s trained? 

Chris Sobenes: You know, they might do a wide range of things. A lot of people that ride in this style are ranching people that want to use their horses for a job on a ranch, maybe they’re branding or sorting cattle. Some people like to show the natural horsemanship style. It is now becoming very prominent in the show world where they’re having ranch, horse versatility classes, where a lot of this style of riding is as very adaptable into that style of showmanship and horsemanship into the show world. But you can do just about anything. You can train a horse in this style and he could be your trail horse and only your trail horse, or you might, want to teach that horse to be a lesson horse or pack your family around. So you can do just about anything with this style of riding and the horse can translate easily into other disciplines from this style of riding. Most people stay in the Western discipline where natural horsemanship style starts.

Paul Ward: And then who are your clients?

Chris Sobenes: I have a variety of people that come to me with horses that they are having a difficult time with. They might have purchased a horse that is above their skill level. I do quite a lot of that. Some people just want to learn to be a better rider for the horse that they have. So I do quite a lot of lessons; horse and rider lessons. I don’t carry a string of lesson horses. I usually work with somebody and their horse or they bring their horse to me and then I help them. I help the horse first; kind of get right. And I help the horse’s owner ride the horse in a better way.

Paul Ward: Okay. Buck Brannaman. I was reading about him. He’s kind of the leader, the pioneer, of the natural horsemanship style. Who is he today?

Chris Sobenes: His grandson’s been on the scene for the natural horsemanship world for 30 plus years. Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance were the people that really kind of brought this style of riding to the public at first. Buck learned from Ray Hunt. But Ray and Tom are gone now. So Buck has carried on their legacy by teaching people this style of riding all over the country. You can see his clinics all over the world and he’s been doing it long enough that he’s become quite a master.

Paul Ward: So one of the things that I read about Buck Brannaman and having watched the movie, The Horse Whisperer, he said a lot of times, “I’m not helping people with horse problems. I’m helping horses with people problems.” I thought that was an interesting comment.

Chris Sobenes: Accurate statement. It is something that we see a lot of in this industry, in the horse world and in general. The horses aren’t really a mechanical thing. They are a living, breathing thing. You know, they have feelings and that’s not really taken into account all the time. People, when they get a new horse, they might be offensive to that horse. So the only thing that horse can do in that situation is defend. So, of course, if a horse is as defensive and aggressive a person might react unkindly. So that relationship becomes difficult for the horse. And then that horse might really not perform the way that person would want. So that kind of spirals out of control. It ends up being really about the person, not about the horse.

Chris Sobenes: The horse is responding to that information from that human. So many times people can bring me a horse that I can do many things on that they cannot because I don’t have an idea of that horse the same way they do. I can help that horse just relax about what we’re asking it to do. And then I can teach the person to ride in the same way that allows that horse to relax about how they’re responding to the animal. So most of the time, it’s just the people don’t understand how the horse works. What they’re looking for, how the body language of the horse is, what they’re missing in that body language that could help them know what’s going to happen. So Ray Hunt used to always say, “Know what happens before it happens.” That used to confuse a lot of people, but basically that was just saying, “You know, things went wrong and you didn’t catch onto it in time.”

Maybe it didn’t end well for you and your horse. That’s all because of the human, the horse was telling you and telling you and telling you, and the person didn’t catch on and didn’t know what to look for. So that’s why it becomes a people problem because they’re not listening to the horse. You can see it in the dog. The dog will growl at you or lower its head. You can watch the eyes and you can see that things are getting a little dicey and that dog might bite me. With horses, you wouldn’t really catch onto that. You really have to know what to look for and what to feel. Then you would know that something was going to go wrong. The sooner that people figure that out, which is not something that most people want to hear when they bring you the horse they ride. They’d like you to fix the horse and then they can ride it. But it really is about the team. It’s a dance. You get up onto the horse and those legs are an extension of you. So it’s not just pull and kick the horse. The horse has to really be invested in it too.

Paul Ward: Interesting. So the owner has a preconceived notion about what they want this animal to do. Thenthey get frustrated and they don’t know what they’re doing so it just kind of snowballs. Then they need an expert like yourself to help them right the wrong that they created.

Chris Sobenes: Right. Sometimes it’s a long haul. Sometimes it changes very quickly. Usually the horse changes really quickly, they just will adapt very immediately. They tend to live right in that moment. What’s happening to them that day. But humans have a lot of baggage, a lot of muscle memory issues. So it takes humans, the rider, a lot longer to change their ways. So many times people will come to ride and then they get up in the saddle and I’ll tell them something like,” Oh, don’t drop your hand.” Then their hand goes down, Or like, “Oh, drop your head.” “Oh, I didn’t even know I was doing that, “” they’ll say to me. So there’s just that dynamic going on with people. We have a lot that’s going on on a daily basis and once you get up onto a horse, all that has to go away and it has to be focused on what you’re doing there and learning how to react with that horse.

Paul Ward: Interesting. And I would imagine that the different disciplines, I mean, if the horse is an extension of you, you’re riding the horse completely different with each of the different disciplines. I mean, I can’t get on as a dressage person and then all of a sudden switch into Western. Right? Then you’re kind of training yourself at the same time you’re training the horse. So if the horse is an extension of you, then all of those little idiosyncrasies have to be brought into play.

Chris Sobenes: Absolutely. Maybe some of the top riders in the world can switch around between the disciplines pretty smoothly, but the average rider would have a hard time. Maybe riding a high level dressage horse, you would have an easy time going into the Western world and trail riding, but maybe doing some of the things that we do on a higher level in our discipline would be something that they’d be unfamiliar with. So it is a little bit trickier to transition from one discipline to the other.

Paul Ward: So what’s one of the more memorable stories about a training that you’ve had.

Chris Sobenes: The one that comes to mind is the horse that brought me to Buck Brandman in the first place. I had a horse where I lived up in Santa Barbara and I knew he was pretty trained in a jumping discipline. And he was a show horse before, too. I thought I had a pretty good handle on him, but I was out riding and I had to cross the street and he was afraid to step over the yellow line on the street. Cars were backing up both directions. He wouldn’t move. He wouldn’t go forward. He wouldn’t go backwards. I thought, I have no control over getting this horse to do anything unless I get off of his back. Which is what I had to do. Luckily, in that lineup of cars was a friend of mine who kind of saw the whole thing. She said, “You gotta go work with this guy. He’s going to come into the area. His name’s Buck Brannaman.” And I was like, “All right, I’ll go check them out.” So when I went and watched him, that’s when I realized I really didn’t have that horse trained as I thought I had him, as a willing partner, as I thought. I had him under control, but I didn’t. So I worked very hard on that horse to try and get him to get to that level where he could go anywhere or do anything with me and that he wouldn’t hesitate. He wouldn’t take over at that moment. That’s what kind of brought me into this world, into this style of riding from then on. 

Paul Ward: What one little trick? Or was there one thing that helped that horse get over that yellow line? 

Chris Sobenes: At that very moment, no. It was just to get off and start to call him away. But in the long run, it came down to getting that horse to follow me better when I was not in the saddle. So we call it groundwork. Working the horse on the ground, out of the saddle, so that when I got in, he was more willing to follow me once I was sitting on his back. 

Paul Ward: Interesting. So how do folks find good trainers such as yourself? Is there a central place for recommendations or word of mouth? 

Chris Sobenes: There’s not really a natural horsemanship trainer website that you can go to. A lot of it is word of mouth. It’s either the vast majority of it is word of mouth. I guess if you went to the Buck Brannaman website you could see all the people that sponsor his clinics and that would be a good place to start. Where you could call somebody that was in your area in your state.

Paul Ward: And those people would know people that were trainers in this style, maybe in your area. Okay, great. So I heard a little bit about you. I heard that you started riding horses through your neighborhood delivering newspapers, right?

Chris Sobenes: Yeah. That’s when I was young, my parents bought my sister and I a little horse and at the time I had a paper route, so of course I had to exercise my horse and get my papers delivered. I would take my horse down and deliver papers through the streets of Santa Barbara. I did that for a year or so when I was a young, young girl and I’ve ridden ever since. 

Paul Ward: Very cool. So Chris Sobenes, thank you so much for being on this edition of Farm Talk. We greatly appreciate you being on our show. 

Chris Sobness: Thank you.   

Paul Ward:  Be sure to tune in for the next edition of Farm Talk. You can find us on Apple, Amazon, of course, YouTube and wherever you find your podcasts.